I have to agree with Charlie: we only have bad choices in dealing with Trump, but letting him off for his crimes is the worst and possibly most fatal of those choices. Sorry, Mona. Otherwise, we're yielding to an absolute Terrorist's Veto.
This is a really tough topic and I think both Mona and Charlie present their thoughts well. My great fear has to do with one of the less-spoken bases of Trumpism: A disdain and actual hatred of what appears to be weakness. They love BDE, the big strut, the intimidation, the slapping down, and the cruelty. If the Justice Department refrains from prosecuting Trump, it will not be seen as prudent, wise or magnanimous: It will be understood, deep in the limbic brain of almost everyone in the country, as weakness. It will be crystal clear where the power resides: In the Trumpian mob. The strongman wins by default, and humans, being herd creatures, will gravitate towards might-makes- right. The winner, the badass. There is no recovering from that.
This is one of the most impressive debates I've ever listened to. Both Charlie and Mona were taking strong positions, pointing out serious flaws in those positions, and yet never ceasing to be civil. This was an excellent debate because there was no winner. Because in this debate there is no "winning" side, there is only a clear-eyed assessment of the situation. First class work, both of you!!
If a single MAGA juror voted to acquit Trump, this would serve as a symbolic marginalization of the MAGA crowd. The eleven votes to convict would be seen as where the nation is and the single vote to acquit an act of partisanship. This outcome would be as good as a conviction.
100% convinced by Charlie here. Not charging will be indistinguishable from an actual exoneration in its impact on the Right. It’s all terrible and dangerous, but in that setting, the choice to make is doing the right thing.
Not surprisingly as Trump's claims and his supporters' objections become more and more violent, I find myself drawn more and more to the words of Lincoln as he confronted our worst domestic peril so far. Please read this from his first message to Congress after the bombardment of Fort Sumter, and ponder its meaning for us today:
"No compromise by public servants could, in this case, be a cure; not that compromises are not often proper, but that no popular government can long survive a marked precedent that those who carry an election can only save the government from immediate destruction by giving up the main point upon which the people gave the election. The people themselves, and not their servants, can safely reverse their own deliberate decisions."
Charlie is right Mona, you HAVE to hold Trump accountable. The vast majority of the country is waiting for one of the federal agencies to move with swift certainty. Do you REALLY believe Trump held on to Top Secret docs because he believed they were his???? He seeks to make money on EVERYTHING - hell he planted Ivana on his golf course so he can receive a small tax break. He is disgraceful - he is a wicked cunning soulless person who has NEVER done anything but play everyone so in the end he gets what he wants. We have to start playing hardball and stop differing to him. He is a FORMER president who broke every rule of decorum and integrity in his quest to become President, along with his 4 year presidential reign and now his shadow presidency doesn’t seem to be going bad for him either. Please STOP calling him a genius, masterful, brilliant . He loves it and we need to deprive him of that oxygen. He is none of these - he is corrupt and if you decide to be corrupt you don’t need to be a genius. He just counts on being the meanest SOB to sit in a government office and date anyone to wrinkle their Brooks Brother suit hauling his fat ass out. Firstly we have had another failure of imagination. Who would ever believe that the only thing preventing the greatest country and democracy on earth from prosecuting a sitting corrupt president is a damn memo- not a law, not a statute, not a regulation but a modern day memo. The president takes a oath which apparently if he breaks it nothing is going to happen because impeachment is the pathway, and no party will impeach one of their own. Secondly, I am losing my $&”t over the fact that a civilian, a non president who Biden removed the courtesy of providing to Ttump the PDB while he sits in his country club (not his home).giving tours of a storage closet filled witj this nation’s most important secrets. Mango Man believes they belong to him so he can tour people in and out to see them just like he toured people in and out ofvthevWH. . It is sickening to know not one person walking in and out of the treasure trove closet comes any where near holding a security clearance. I know a military officer who had a full investigation come down hard on her because she mildly mishandled a single top secret doc on the way to the SCIF. Finally, our country is in peril. Do you really think he just wants boxes of papers for nothing other than to say he has them? Trump has debts to pay and the deal with Putin is the one who got away, Trump has papers to sell. LIV golf will pay 100’s of millions to broken down golfers just to help Trump stick it to the PGA, what do you think they would pay for the CIA’s File on one certain WAPO dissident journalist who was a resident of OUR county?!? Somebody in charge needs to give Liz Cheney the task of figuring out what laws need to be changed to hold a lying, cheating, corrupt president accountable - I know she’s up to the task. We like to say that we have three equal branches of government - that’s absolutely not true - we have an imperial president running the executive branch and country. What he says goes, how in the hell is it good policy or a wsy to strength a democracy to give ANY single person the power to declassify the very documents and secrets that keep us free without first receiving a consensus from the heads of DOD, CIA, Justice, FBI, etc… that is one wrong ass policy. How can anyone stand before the stars on the CIA memorial wall, or walk through Arlington and believe we are stronger as a nation because we give a single individual total command and control over the information that our enemies most want? Trump absolutely should never be near ANY government office again. He is dangerous abs he has raised dangerous offspring. Shame on us for not fighting fire with fire.
Charlie is definitely right in this debate. Mona’s argument is nonsensical to me. Mona’s argument creates a precedent that as long as you’re powerful and have crazy supporters, the rule of law doesn’t exist.
Outstanding debate between two people of disagreement and who both present their arguments cogently and with passion. I have to agree with Charlie, though. Appeasement never has worked and never will. Sorry, Mona.
Follow the law; just because MAGA folks can intimidate public officials and civil servants does not mean that such intimidate should be rewarded. If Trump is elected he will provide legal immunity to death squads unless everyone does what he says.
I think, respectfully, Mona's argument is we can't feed the base more raw meat. Well they don't need it. That ship has sailed and the rabid base is what it is. Ignoring the rule of law just reinforces their convictions, and eliminates, any possible doubt about this person that a few of them still might entertain in their brainwashed states. But ... he's not some other wordily god from a Marvel movie. He can be vanquished pretty easily through a combination of the righteously applied rule of law, combined with a significant influencer like the Tucker and other powerful people simply turning on him. Were that the case, the base would pivot like the zombies they are to their new god, whoever that is ... (though we already see the candidates, don't we. ) This orange disaster is as ripe for a quick fall as Saddam Hussein's statue. Throw the damn book at him. Let the base watch him squirm.
I made it 34 minutes into the podcast before I had to turn it off. I’m a big fan of Mona C. I view her as the clear and calm head in the Bulwark stable. However, 34 minutes of trump coddling was too much for me. The former president is a US citizen and should be subjected to the rules and laws of our country. DOJ should play this stolen document event by the book. Evidence should be collected, analyzed, and presented to a grand jury. If the grand jury returns a true bill then someone should be indicted, regardless of the persons previous title, future ambitions, or relationships with militias. Fears of possible jury nullification, civil unrest, or re-election of an individual should not dissuade our justice process.
I disagree with Mona. You can't hold Trump responsible in the publics eye. That has been a failed policy for urars now. And to just drop this now gives him the exact super power she is so afraid of. If this disappeared tomorrow he says he won and it was all a hoax
I have to agree with Charlie: we only have bad choices in dealing with Trump, but letting him off for his crimes is the worst and possibly most fatal of those choices. Sorry, Mona. Otherwise, we're yielding to an absolute Terrorist's Veto.
This is a really tough topic and I think both Mona and Charlie present their thoughts well. My great fear has to do with one of the less-spoken bases of Trumpism: A disdain and actual hatred of what appears to be weakness. They love BDE, the big strut, the intimidation, the slapping down, and the cruelty. If the Justice Department refrains from prosecuting Trump, it will not be seen as prudent, wise or magnanimous: It will be understood, deep in the limbic brain of almost everyone in the country, as weakness. It will be crystal clear where the power resides: In the Trumpian mob. The strongman wins by default, and humans, being herd creatures, will gravitate towards might-makes- right. The winner, the badass. There is no recovering from that.
This is one of the most impressive debates I've ever listened to. Both Charlie and Mona were taking strong positions, pointing out serious flaws in those positions, and yet never ceasing to be civil. This was an excellent debate because there was no winner. Because in this debate there is no "winning" side, there is only a clear-eyed assessment of the situation. First class work, both of you!!
If a single MAGA juror voted to acquit Trump, this would serve as a symbolic marginalization of the MAGA crowd. The eleven votes to convict would be seen as where the nation is and the single vote to acquit an act of partisanship. This outcome would be as good as a conviction.
100% convinced by Charlie here. Not charging will be indistinguishable from an actual exoneration in its impact on the Right. It’s all terrible and dangerous, but in that setting, the choice to make is doing the right thing.
No one is above the law. MAGA is going to MAGA either way. We cannot cave to that. I'm with Charlie on this.
Not surprisingly as Trump's claims and his supporters' objections become more and more violent, I find myself drawn more and more to the words of Lincoln as he confronted our worst domestic peril so far. Please read this from his first message to Congress after the bombardment of Fort Sumter, and ponder its meaning for us today:
"No compromise by public servants could, in this case, be a cure; not that compromises are not often proper, but that no popular government can long survive a marked precedent that those who carry an election can only save the government from immediate destruction by giving up the main point upon which the people gave the election. The people themselves, and not their servants, can safely reverse their own deliberate decisions."
Oh Mona....
Follow the law and buckle up!
Charlie is right Mona, you HAVE to hold Trump accountable. The vast majority of the country is waiting for one of the federal agencies to move with swift certainty. Do you REALLY believe Trump held on to Top Secret docs because he believed they were his???? He seeks to make money on EVERYTHING - hell he planted Ivana on his golf course so he can receive a small tax break. He is disgraceful - he is a wicked cunning soulless person who has NEVER done anything but play everyone so in the end he gets what he wants. We have to start playing hardball and stop differing to him. He is a FORMER president who broke every rule of decorum and integrity in his quest to become President, along with his 4 year presidential reign and now his shadow presidency doesn’t seem to be going bad for him either. Please STOP calling him a genius, masterful, brilliant . He loves it and we need to deprive him of that oxygen. He is none of these - he is corrupt and if you decide to be corrupt you don’t need to be a genius. He just counts on being the meanest SOB to sit in a government office and date anyone to wrinkle their Brooks Brother suit hauling his fat ass out. Firstly we have had another failure of imagination. Who would ever believe that the only thing preventing the greatest country and democracy on earth from prosecuting a sitting corrupt president is a damn memo- not a law, not a statute, not a regulation but a modern day memo. The president takes a oath which apparently if he breaks it nothing is going to happen because impeachment is the pathway, and no party will impeach one of their own. Secondly, I am losing my $&”t over the fact that a civilian, a non president who Biden removed the courtesy of providing to Ttump the PDB while he sits in his country club (not his home).giving tours of a storage closet filled witj this nation’s most important secrets. Mango Man believes they belong to him so he can tour people in and out to see them just like he toured people in and out ofvthevWH. . It is sickening to know not one person walking in and out of the treasure trove closet comes any where near holding a security clearance. I know a military officer who had a full investigation come down hard on her because she mildly mishandled a single top secret doc on the way to the SCIF. Finally, our country is in peril. Do you really think he just wants boxes of papers for nothing other than to say he has them? Trump has debts to pay and the deal with Putin is the one who got away, Trump has papers to sell. LIV golf will pay 100’s of millions to broken down golfers just to help Trump stick it to the PGA, what do you think they would pay for the CIA’s File on one certain WAPO dissident journalist who was a resident of OUR county?!? Somebody in charge needs to give Liz Cheney the task of figuring out what laws need to be changed to hold a lying, cheating, corrupt president accountable - I know she’s up to the task. We like to say that we have three equal branches of government - that’s absolutely not true - we have an imperial president running the executive branch and country. What he says goes, how in the hell is it good policy or a wsy to strength a democracy to give ANY single person the power to declassify the very documents and secrets that keep us free without first receiving a consensus from the heads of DOD, CIA, Justice, FBI, etc… that is one wrong ass policy. How can anyone stand before the stars on the CIA memorial wall, or walk through Arlington and believe we are stronger as a nation because we give a single individual total command and control over the information that our enemies most want? Trump absolutely should never be near ANY government office again. He is dangerous abs he has raised dangerous offspring. Shame on us for not fighting fire with fire.
Charlie is definitely right in this debate. Mona’s argument is nonsensical to me. Mona’s argument creates a precedent that as long as you’re powerful and have crazy supporters, the rule of law doesn’t exist.
Outstanding debate between two people of disagreement and who both present their arguments cogently and with passion. I have to agree with Charlie, though. Appeasement never has worked and never will. Sorry, Mona.
Follow the law; just because MAGA folks can intimidate public officials and civil servants does not mean that such intimidate should be rewarded. If Trump is elected he will provide legal immunity to death squads unless everyone does what he says.
I think, respectfully, Mona's argument is we can't feed the base more raw meat. Well they don't need it. That ship has sailed and the rabid base is what it is. Ignoring the rule of law just reinforces their convictions, and eliminates, any possible doubt about this person that a few of them still might entertain in their brainwashed states. But ... he's not some other wordily god from a Marvel movie. He can be vanquished pretty easily through a combination of the righteously applied rule of law, combined with a significant influencer like the Tucker and other powerful people simply turning on him. Were that the case, the base would pivot like the zombies they are to their new god, whoever that is ... (though we already see the candidates, don't we. ) This orange disaster is as ripe for a quick fall as Saddam Hussein's statue. Throw the damn book at him. Let the base watch him squirm.
I made it 34 minutes into the podcast before I had to turn it off. I’m a big fan of Mona C. I view her as the clear and calm head in the Bulwark stable. However, 34 minutes of trump coddling was too much for me. The former president is a US citizen and should be subjected to the rules and laws of our country. DOJ should play this stolen document event by the book. Evidence should be collected, analyzed, and presented to a grand jury. If the grand jury returns a true bill then someone should be indicted, regardless of the persons previous title, future ambitions, or relationships with militias. Fears of possible jury nullification, civil unrest, or re-election of an individual should not dissuade our justice process.
I disagree with Mona. You can't hold Trump responsible in the publics eye. That has been a failed policy for urars now. And to just drop this now gives him the exact super power she is so afraid of. If this disappeared tomorrow he says he won and it was all a hoax